More About Justin

If you’ve made the mistake of thinking that Generation Z is unfocused or unprepared for the real world, Justin is here to let you know that the digital natives will run the planet sooner than later. Justin fills a key IT role at FYIN, assisting with code deployments and cloud hosting tasks. A fast learner with a reputation for being highly dependable, he is conscientious and detail-oriented, which is great news for co-workers and clients alike.

Like many FYIN team members, Justin is innately curious and likes to know how things are constructed. He can build anything as long as there is a YouTube video on the topic. 

Justin is a Wisconsin native, but he currently lives on a ranch in Texas with his wife and daughter (and lots of cats and other animals). He and Kassidee often take in disabled cats for rehabilitation and/or long-term residence. Justin’s other hobbies include cinematography (he’s particularly interested in claymation), gaming, and listening to old-school rock. He’s a sucker for classic rock from artists like Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, and the Eagles. He loves museums so much that his wedding reception was held at the Milwaukee Public Museum.

Pet peeve: People who stand up on the plane as soon as it lands. Word!

More about Steve

He’s certified, he’s data-driven, and he can cook! Meet Steve, a skilled Paid Media Strategist with charisma to spare. 

Steve is a Denver native; he’s lived in Colorado all his life except for a one-year stint living in Australia. He lived in a big city (Sydney) and hence does not have any exciting stories about Australian wildlife (we definitely asked). After high school, he earned a Liberal Arts degree (with a minor in History as well as a minor in Marketing) from Colorado State University. Steve’s career path began in hospitality, a decade-long journey that gave him invaluable skills in working with many different types of people.

In time, Steve made the leap from hospitality to digital marketing. The more he learned about the psychology of how a user finds products/services and whether or not that interaction results in a sale/conversion, the more fascinated he became. Steve knew he wanted to get inside the head of that user and use data to make predictions and informed recommendations. He found that he had a natural skill in this arena and loves finding new ways to use technology and data to drive results. 

Since coming to the dark - er, data - side, he's built a solid background in digital marketing, holding leadership positions along the way.  In addition to PPC, Steve also has a solid understanding of SEO, Social Media,  and SEM principles. He holds multiple Google certifications: Google Search, Google Analytics, and Google Measurements.

Steve and his girlfriend share their home with a cat and a dog. He enjoys cooking, snowboarding, and watching football. His years in the restaurant industry taught him priceless kitchen skills. He describes himself as being even-keeled, pragmatic, self-motived, and chock full of leadership skills. Steve prides himself on always leaving a job well done. 

Random fact: Steve was once a nationally-ranked distance runner. Nope, no one was chasing him! 

More About Tony

He’s fit, he’s an accomplished photographer, and he knows fancy words like al dente, compote, and canape. But wait, there’s more! Tony is also an SEO expert, which is an in-demand skill in today’s data-driven world. He’s a knowledgeable and energetic addition to the Click Mentality team and does a great job of explaining SEO strategies in a way that non-experts can understand. Tony prides himself on being able to communicate with different types of people in a team environment. 

He started his education in microbiology, took a break, and later attended the Art Institute of Colorado, which gave him an opportunity to explore his love of art, painting, and graphic design. Tony also had a keen interest in technology and website development. As the SEO field began to form, Tony jumped right in, learning all the ins and outs of search engines and how to drive targeted traffic in all the right directions. 

Tony has two adult children, a son and a daughter. When asked about his proudest accomplishment, his children come first. He’s also proud of participating in a cycling fundraiser that found him crossing the entire state in two days. In addition to cycling, Tony also enjoys weightlifting (he used to compete in CrossFit), hiking, and longboarding. Now, back to those fancy words: Tony is a gourmet cook and enjoys the challenge of mastering new dishes. Photography is one of his other great passions. He found a niche in sports and fitness photography, even booking some commercial clients. 

Random fact: While most people would agree that how you pronounce the word “caramel” depends largely on regional differences, Tony would like you to know that there is only one pronunciation: care-ah-mel. There will be no further debate. 

More About Chris

Chris is definitely one of those “living life on his own terms” people. When he’s not leading projects for FYIN’s client-partners, you may find him deep in the wilderness, hiking and/or hunting with his dog. He also enjoys fly fishing and snowboarding. A Colorado native, Chris spent some time living in Asia when he was younger. Later, he earned a BA in Speech Communication from Metropolitan State University of Denver and a Master of Project Management degree from Colorado State University. 

Chris describes himself as loyal, detail-oriented, and forward-thinking. He brings to the table a decade of experience managing digital marketing projects. He’s never met a deadline he can't crush, all with an eye on the project's budget and goals. Chris may seem a bit quiet in meetings, but he’s incredibly skilled at listening and understanding needs. He prides himself on being able to communicate with many different audiences (technical, non-technical, etc.) - he makes sure everyone feels heard and understood. In turn, he is able to drive solutions and recommendations that move the needle. 

Random fact: Chris’s mom didn’t have a chance to finish college when she became pregnant with the future project manager. Years later, she finished her degree at the same time as Chris; they graduated together.

More About Tyler

As a kid, Tyler’s introduction to computers was dramatic and slightly traumatic. His parents got him a new computer and shortly thereafter, a wild storm hit and it went up in flames. Literally, not figuratively. Knowing that his parents were unlikely to replace his smoky PC anytime soon, Tyler set about rebuilding it. He taught himself the ins and outs of the machine’s hardware, replacing and repairing it bit by bit. Eventually, he once again had a working computer. 

For most of his education and subsequent career path, Tyler has focused on striking a balance between theory and practice. He earned an Associate’s degree in Technology, later adding a BA in Computer Science. Today, his skill set includes ASP.NET, software development lifecycles, design principles, documentation, testing, and much more. 

Tyler grew up in St. Louis, Missouri. As a kid (right before the flames shot out of his computer), he thought he might someday become a chiropractor or a mathematician. In time, his interest in computers ramped up and the rest is history. He describes himself as detail-oriented and precise, which are key attributes for any skilled developer. Tyler is also a planner - the toilet paper will never run out on his watch!

Tyler is a big fan of outdoorsy activities like hiking. St. Louis had decent hiking trails, but it’s hard to look back once you’ve taken a gander at the Rockies. In 2019, he and his wife (Sami) decided to take the plunge and move to Colorado. Their cat, Binxx, is still on the fence about the whole thing. Tyler also enjoys playing video games, cooking, and traveling. 

Random fact: Tyler and Sami eloped in Rocky Mountain National Park. 

More About Jordan

Meet Jordan! He's a creative problem solver with a particular affinity for the 4th of July. When asked to describe himself, Jordan sometimes adds “tired” to the list of adjectives. He is, after all, a busy dad to two tween girls (and no, he seldom gets an adequate amount of hot water for his showers). Jordan is married to his college sweetheart; the two girls are joined by one well-loved dog. 

Jordan grew up in Kentucky and often finds himself missing the beauty of the Bluegrass State. His career began in radio with an emphasis on music management. Jordan holds a BA in Music Industry (with an emphasis on the performance/business side of music) and an MS in Entertainment Business. He’s comfortable on stage in front of a crowd but also enjoys the behind-the-curtain aspect of entertainment. 

A decade ago, Jordan moved to Colorado and has come to appreciate the beauty of the Rockies (a close second to Kentucky!). His career expanded into project management, which was a natural fit for Jordan’s problem-solving and communication skills. Like many PMs, he tends to be a jack of all trades and will happily tackle anything from content to web updates. He also provides himself on being flexible and passionate, which are attributes that serve him well in our fast-changing industry. 

Random Fact: Jordan earned the distinction of being an Eagle Scout at the very young age of 14. His final project was to build housing for a humane society as well as collecting food for the furry residents of the shelter.

More About Brett

Meet Brett, a skilled software developer, Packers fanatic (he’s even a shareholder), hands-on dad, imaginative woodworker, and occasional golfer. Brett is a Wisconsin native who caught the programming bug in middle school and later earned a BS in Computer Science from UW-Milwaukee. Just for good measure, he also earned a BS in Electrical Engineering from the same university. 

Like many full-stack developers, Brett’s a naturally curious problem-solver who enjoys a good challenge. He holds two patents, which shows you just how innovative his solutions to those challenges can be! He enjoys mentoring new developers and has taught college-level classes in mobile application building. Brett thrives in a collaborative environment and has earned a reputation for driving success on every project he touches. His lengthy list of skills includes C#, SQL, .NET Core, Entity Framework, JavaScript, and many more. 

Brett describes himself as an easygoing, “don’t sweat the small stuff” kind of guy. He doesn’t shy away from being a “nerd,” and while his effusive praise for Pearl Jam might be hard to understand, his enthusiasm for being a dad is not. Brett is an active father who enjoys embarking on adventures large and small with his son. 

Random fact: Brett would like to take his woodworking skills to the next level and build a trebuchet so that he can “chuck stuff down the road.” 

More about Haakon

Meet Haakon, an adrenaline junkie with a passion for SEO, fitness, and the great outdoors. His name, in case you wondered, is Norwegian-derived and is pronounced like “Hawken,” though he’s no doubt heard every possible variation by now.

Haakon lived in several states before settling in Colorado. He has lived in Florida and Wyoming. In fact, Haakon met his girlfriend Ellie while skiing in Jackson Hole. He has worked as a digital marketing professional and as a personal trainer. He developed and runs a fitness-focused website, which gives him an opportunity to keep his content and SEO skills sharp.

Haakon holds a BS in Marketing from the University of Central Florida. He joined our team as an SEO Strategist. He is passionate about content creation, data analysis, and lead generation. Haakon is goal-oriented and driven – personally and professionally. He’s always ready to learn new tools and find the most advantageous path for our client-partners.

When he’s not harnessing the power of data to help our clients reach their business goals, Haakon enjoys crushing his workouts at the gym, skiing, and mountain biking. He’ll hike the Rockies if he must but prefers faster-paced endeavors that drive his heart rate up. Haakon describes himself as being energetic and positive in nature. He and Ellie share a Shepherd mix named Otis. Word has it that Otis tries their patience and has #noregrets while doing so.

Random fact: Haakon once did some coaching/training with Nikki Sixx of Motley Crue.

More about Ryan

If digital marketing is an art (and we’d enthusiastically assert that it is!), Ryan is an artist in every sense of the word. More on that later. 

Ryan is a Colorado native. He grew up in the western part of the state, in Grand Junction. Like many Coloradans, Ryan enjoys outdoorsy pursuits like skiing, golfing, and river rafting. 

Ryan earned a BA in Business Administration (with a Marketing focus) from Colorado Mesa University. While attending college, he had the good fortune to meet his girlfriend Colleen, a fellow student. 

After college, Ryan dabbled in sales but found that he wasn’t a fan of the fine art of cold-calling. He drifted into marketing and business development, finding that he enjoyed the psychological aspect of marketing - what makes people tick and how do they make decisions? One way to dive deeply into all aspects of the buyer’s journey is to develop expertise in Pay-Per-Click (PPC) advertising. Ryan did just that. He holds certifications in GA4 and Google Ads Search. He is also working on a Salesforce Admin certification. 

Ryan and Colleen currently live in Englewood. Their day-to-day activities are managed by two cats. Ryan describes himself as being happy, even-keeled, and diplomatic. He enjoys trying new things and prides himself on being able to see challenges from all sides. Ryan is a fan of variety, which makes him a great fit for the ever-varied agency life. We’re thrilled to have Ryan on the team! 

Random fact: Ryan’s chosen profession is all about data, but he also has a creative streak and loves to express himself through painting (the canvas kind, not the wall kind!).  

More About Zach

Coming to you from the end of the alphabet, it’s Zach! Zach is an Umbraco pro with several Umbraco certifications under his belt. 

Unlike many members of our team who are native Coloradans, Zach hails from Brooklyn, New York. He grew up behind a keyboard, teaching himself HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. Zach earned an AA degree in graphic design from Kingsborough College. His career started in the print industry; later, he grew into a tech role for a large sporting organization. Soon, he became the primary developer. 

Although the East Coast cast a long shadow over his formative years, Zach decided to go west and settled in Colorado Springs with some roommates. He’ll tell you in no uncertain terms that he's not outdoorsy, but he obliges himself to climb Pike’s Peak once a year like clockwork. 

Zach considers himself to be a creative problem-solver - always a great trait for a developer to have! He thrives on being efficient when getting things done. As a seasoned Umbrician, Zach brings a wealth of knowledge to web projects of all sizes. 

Random fact: Zach embraces his inner geek and enjoys taking part in a weekly Dungeons & Dragons meet-up. He also dedicates some of his spare time to painting Warhammer figurines. 

More About Pam

Pam is a Wisconsin native who raised three children so that she’d eventually have grandchildren to spoil. And now she has three of those as well! When she’s not diving into code or filling her grandchildren with sugar and good times, Pam loves live music and travel. She and her husband sometimes combine the two, traveling for concerts and other events. Pam is a confirmed extrovert who enjoys meeting new people and connecting with them.

After raising her children and spending some time working in a local mill, Pam decided it was time for a new path. She dove head-first into tech and earned a B.S. in Computer Science from Lakeland College. Pam then embarked on a career in software development. She’s built a career as a skilled .NET developer with expertise in System Architecture, Database Design, C#, JavaScript, JSON, and much more. 

Pam’s a team player who knows that collaboration on complex projects ensures the best outcome for all. She’s a critical thinker whose ebullient personality brings teams together. Her brain is happy when things fit together, leading to her appreciation for databases and puzzles alike. 

In addition to her other skills and interests, Pam is a creator. She enjoys making arts and crafts and sometimes makes small giveaway items to take to concerts. Her Cricut seldom gets a day off! Whether delivering stellar code or custom t-shirts, Pam’s skill and enthusiasm are unmatched. 

Random fact: As a kid, Pam thought her dream job would be to become a roving National Geographic photographer. She fulfilled the travel part of that particular dream! 

More About Rachel

Rachel is a tech-savvy jack-of-all-trades with a background in DevOps, QA, Selenium testing, software development, and much more. She prides herself on her ability to contribute to any project team by filling in gaps and leveraging her extensive list of technical skills. 

Rachel holds a BS in Computer Information Technology from Methodist University and an MBA from the University of Denver. She is also a proud Army veteran, having served at several duty stations in the field of intelligence and linguistics. 

Rachel is originally from Kentucky and still has roots (and a cabin rental business) there. She has also lived in North Carolina, Arizona, and California. Rachel has called Denver home since 2011. Like most Coloradans, she enjoys outdoorsy pursuits against the backdrop of the Rockies (minus one incident involving a snowboarding wipe-out). 

As a kid, Rachel wanted to be a professional basketball player when she grew up. She wasn’t too far off with that dream and did end up playing semi-pro. Today, she invests some of her energy and spare time in coaching middle school girls in basketball and tennis. Rachel likes to stay active; she ran two half-marathons and competed in a triathlon. 

Random fact: Rachel speaks fluent Korean thanks to her Army training.

More About Alex

Like many developers, Alex is a natural-born problem solver who developed an interest in computers and programming when he was a kid. He was - and still is! -  passionate about learning all there is to know about software development. Alex has built a deep and wide knowledge of Umbraco, making him a great fit for many of our complex Umbraco projects. In the Umbraco lane, he’s also developed specialized skills in tools like uSync (becoming a data migration pro in the process). His overall toolkit also includes C#, Bootstrap, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, MVC, and more. 

Alex hails from Iowa; he grew up in a largish family that includes three sisters and a brother. He sailed through high school and earned a full-ride scholarship to Iowa State University, where he earned a BS in Software Engineering. His college years included time spent studying in Japan, an experience that left an indelible impression on him. 

Now settled in Colorado, Alex’s varied interests include gaming, sci-fi, board games, cars, and electronics. He’s also been known to create his own games. He likes to stay active and hopes to do some traveling in the future - there might just be a backpacking trip on the horizon! 

Random fact: In college, Alex competed in the International Collegiate Programming Contest (ICPC) and made it to the North American Championship.

More About David

David isn’t big on titles (many of the FYIN team members selected their own job titles), but technically speaking, he is our Managing Director. And founder. And owner. He’s the guy with the entrepreneurial spirit, the soaring vision, and the will to make it all happen.

Although we sometimes tease David about our theory that he only sleeps about 45 minutes a night, he does get a lot done in a day. He also leverages one of his most critical skills for the leader of a technology company: bringing other people up. Several of our developers did not start off in tech. David identifies the best and brightest in a variety of fields (like bartending and construction!) and recognizes in them a solid work ethic and capacity to learn and grow.

While many technical people have a tendency toward introversion, David is a rare combination of being highly technical and a “people person.” He prides himself on leveraging technology in ways that other people don’t.  He is, of course, a Certified Umbraco Master. David began teaching himself to write code at a young age and later started FYIN in 1999. Since then, he has built the company into an Umbraco-centric digital marketing powerhouse. As a certified Gold Partner, FYIN is considered to be one of the top Umbraco firms in the U.S.

David is the prototypical “small-town boy” who later moved to the Big City. He has lived in Denver for several years and enjoys the typical outdoor pursuits (like skiing and golfing) that Colorado’s favorable weather allows. David also has a zeal for all things aeronautical. To date, he has logged over 300 hours of flight time. 

David is a proud father of three children. We’re betting that at least one of the three starts a company before the age of 12.

More About Dan

Wisconsin native. Seasoned Systems Architect. Developer. Car guy.

These are just a few of the terms one might use to describe Dan, who joined the FYIN team in 2018. Dan brings with him a wealth of experience in development, problem-solving, systems integration, and architecture planning and implementation. He prides himself on having the ability to view a technical challenge from many angles and finding the most efficient path to get from where you are to where you want to be.

Dan lives in Mukwonago, a suburb of Milwaukee, with his family. He and his wife are the proud parents of a son and daughter, both of whom are in college.

When he can peel himself away from his keyboard, Dan enjoys motorsports and motorsports engineering. Like many developers, he likes to know how things work - and that includes engines.

In addition to motorsports, Dan also enjoys travel, photography, boating, and downhill skiing.

Random fact: Dan’s favorite palindrome is RACECAR.

More About Claudia

Claudia tends to straddle two worlds. She’s an introvert who enjoys people. She’s an English Major who has a deep appreciation for technology. After 25+ years in the IT industry, she feels right at home here at FYIN. She takes advantage of her years of experience working in the Umbraco CMS by serving as a Partner Advocate. Claudia’s role involves project coordination and scheduling (AKA “herding the cats”), as well as working with our client partners to ensure that their needs are met. She's also our KB (KnowledgeBase) whiz and usually has an outrageous number of browser tabs open at any given time. 

Originally from Northern Virginia, Claudia has resided in Green Bay, Wisconsin for over 25 years. When she’s not working, she enjoys practicing yoga, writing, walking her dogs, conquering jigsaw puzzles, and taking on home improvement projects that make her husband nervous. She also loves the ocean and hopes to live closer to one someday. Claudia has one daughter, a musical theatre kid who's away at college. She admits to being a “crazy dog lady” and has spent the last two decades volunteering for rescues and shelters.

All-time favorite song: “Every Little Thing She Does is Magic” by The Police. It’s a big enough umbrella!

More About Scott

Umbraco Master: Almost as cool as a Dungeon Master, but infinitely more useful to our client partners. Scott, a member of the team for over eight years, wears the Umbraco Master title with pride and has achieved every certification that Umbraco offers. Give him a technical challenge and he’ll master it. Scott wears lots of hats. He deftly handles all forms of development including front-end, back-end, and server architecture. You’ll even find him running our laser engraving machine. Scott is not someone we hide in a back room so that he can write code all day; he interfaces directly with our client-partners and shares his expertise firsthand.

Originally from the Milwaukee suburbs, Scott took a leap of faith and moved to Denver several years ago. Colorado’s better-than-Wisconsin weather means that he can get outdoors more often, riding his motorcycle and playing disc golf (but not typically at the same time). While the motorcycle might lead you to believe that he’s the rebellious sort, Scott admits to a pet peeve that paints a slightly different picture: he hates messy code.

Something people are surprised to learn: Scott sports several tattoos and piercings and has been known to sit still for up to 11 hours for a tattoo session.

More About Hyon

Hyon ("rhymes with neon") joined the FYIN team as a .NET Developer in 2019. Hyon was born in Korea but has spent most of his life in Colorado. He emigrated to the US in 1984, when he was but a wee lad. He later earned a B.S. in Math from Colorado School of Mines in Golden.

Hyon brings many technical strengths to our team. He has a solid background in C# and the Microsoft Web stack. He holds a certification in Microsoft Certified Solutions Associate for Web Applications.  

The best developers are self-motivated, curious, and never satisfied with “good enough.” Hyon fits the bill on all of those qualities. He doesn’t consider the task done until it’s something he can be proud of. Hyon is methodical and focused, but isn’t afraid to have a little fun at the same time. He is generally a positive thinker and a friendly soul, but do not get him started on improper turn signal usage.

Like many Coloradans, he enjoys outdoorsy activities like mountain biking. He also indulges his creative side through photography. Of course, as a parent, Hyon directs some of his excess energy into chasing his kids. He enjoys sharing his Korean heritage with his children and often rings in each New Year with traditional Korean food.

Random fact: If you’re also a bike nerd, you may be impressed to know that he has been known to pedal up Lookout Mountain in under 26 minutes.

More About Cassio

Cássio hails from Brazil. He considers São Sepé to be his hometown, but he has also lived in Porto Alegre. Cássio enjoys traveling and has journeyed as far as Patagonia in the far southern reaches of South America (basically, the last stop before Antarctica). 

Like many members of the FYIN team, Cássio holds several Umbraco certifications. He earned an undergraduate degree in Information Systems and a Masters in Engineering from Universidade Luterana do Brasil. His list of technical skills is extraordinarily long and includes everything from .NET to C# to Raspberry Pi. One noteworthy accomplishment: upon the conclusion of his IT studies in Brazil, he created a smart home application and presented it on national television.

Cássio’s hobbies include building electronics, watching Netflix, playing sports, and making music. He prides himself on being detail-oriented and having a strong focus on excellence. His innate curiosity means that he is always researching new technologies and finding new fields to explore.

Something people are surprised to learn: Because Cássio tends to have a laid-back demeanor, it may come as a surprise to know that he is a martial arts expert and is about to test for the black belt in Tae Kwon Do.

More About John

A whip-smart MBA who grew up on a farm and knows his way around heavy machinery? Yes, such a person exists and his name is John. John joins the FYIN team as a Project Manager, bringing his wide-ranging skills to our growing list of projects and engagements. John has a strong track record of leading projects from inception through completion, earning the praise of co-workers and clients alike. He excels at driving processes that lead straight to success.  

John grew up in the Green Bay, Wisconsin area. And yes, he is a loyal Packers fan, as per the requirement for all Wisconsinites. His years on the farm taught him how to fix stuff, as well as the importance of having a strong work ethic. After high school, John set out to study aerospace engineering in college. Eventually, he changed course a bit and received his undergraduate degree in mechanical engineering. Later, he earned an MBA from Marquette University in Milwaukee. Before long, he was making his mark at some of the biggest manufacturers in the Milwaukee area, gaining experience in various engineering and project management roles. 

Unable to resist the siren call of Green Bay, John eventually returned to his roots. Today, he and his wife Tiffany have two young children, a boy and a girl. John is Tiffany’s number one fan and says that she is truly an exceptional wife, mother, and all-around amazing person. 

John describes himself as easygoing, open-minded, and loyal. He’s data-driven and process-oriented, but he’s no stick in the mud. John enjoys traveling, boating, and whatever adventures may come his way. His handyman skills continue to come in, well, handy. He owns a few properties and of course, there is always something to be fixed. 

Random fact: John has been known to use his highly limited free time to whip up gourmet cheesecakes. His dog is not allowed to partake but remains ever hopeful that some tidbit may hit the floor. 

More About Kristin

FYIN needed a creative person who understands web development, and we found her! Kristin is a Colorado native who considers herself to be a lifelong learner. She earned a BS in Advertising from the University of Colorado at Boulder and rounded out her education by delving into coding on her own. In addition to her impressive design portfolio, Kristin brings to the table strong skills in HTML/CSS, Javascript, WordPress, and of course the full Adobe Creative Suite. She has also been initiated into the Umbraco universe and picked it up in no time. 

Kristin describes herself as conscientious, detail-oriented, curious, and thorough. She enjoys DIY projects, photography, and water sports like wakeboarding. She has family in Hawaii and spent time there growing up, which is where she developed a love for the water. Kristin carries the spirit of Aloha with her wherever she goes by reflecting compassion, hope, and empathy in every interaction.  

When she’s not flexing her design and development skills, Kristin enjoys true crime documentaries, puzzles, and trivia. She loves to explore design trends, particularly as they relate to sustainability and eco-friendliness. She recently bought her first house (woohoo!) and is enjoying all the little projects that come with it.

Random Fact: Kristin wants nothing to do with ketchup (and no, spelling it catsup won’t make it any more appealing to her). Other condiments are fine, but ketchup? No.